tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post31717172012790177..comments2024-01-25T04:21:22.326-08:00Comments on Late Night CoCo!: Under the Coverjhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11031266315422011010noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-36010878101898941982015-06-25T20:24:35.535-07:002015-06-25T20:24:35.535-07:00One of the CoCo's biggest problems didn't ...One of the CoCo's biggest problems didn't have anything to do with technology, or for that matter, management looking to save a buck, but, intentionally keeping the CoCo below the standards of the PCs it was selling (for alot more money). So, keeping the CoCo cost effective was needed to meet the price. At the end of the day, the CoCo's driving design mandate was price. Naturally, the engineers who designed it had access to continually better hardware, but had to deal with cost constraints. From what I see, they were just too good at their jobs, and were producing near or at the quality of the PCs of the day, and Tandy wanted nothing to do with providing equal specs from a $200 machine. It's sad, because the CoCo developers were just really good at what they did, but were held back by price constraints as well as just not out-doing the PCs. PC architecture was horrible back in those days, so it wasn't difficult for the CoCo designers to reach parity with much more expensive, but poorly designed PCs. Seeing as we have the designer of the CoCo 3 participating in the discussion, perhaps he could shed more light on what drove development and what management obstacles were there.John Laury https://www.blogger.com/profile/02211207675742541182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-36152461641271543992015-05-28T11:34:03.793-07:002015-05-28T11:34:03.793-07:00The Cocos 1 thru 3 had superior sound compared to ...The Cocos 1 thru 3 had superior sound compared to the Apples and Commos in one sense -- with the 6-bit DAC they could do sampled sounds like breathing, gunshots, speech etc. The other machines had to fake these by careful manipulation of the AY or whatever sound chip. Of course playing those samples chewed up precious CPU cycles, but only our Cocos could talk. FWIW, I wrote some music playing code for COcos that never gort published, bujt could do 6-part stereo. Regret I did not put these into UltiMusE-III.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05361865127723995765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-19651059042591986782015-05-27T16:57:00.535-07:002015-05-27T16:57:00.535-07:00Search the first disk for the word blue, you might...Search the first disk for the word blue, you might find something interesting.<br />Phantomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01531096742663501044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-67043660851906646932015-05-22T20:21:13.237-07:002015-05-22T20:21:13.237-07:00Here is the Dragon 64/Tano Dragon setup:
CPUType ...Here is the Dragon 64/Tano Dragon setup:<br /><br />CPUType set Dragon<br />ClocType set 0<br />PwrLnFrq set Hz50 Set for appropriate Line Frequency<br />ACIAType set ACIA6551<br />DPort set $FF40<br />A.T2 set $FF04 6551 ACIA<br /><br />It appears to have the 6551 at $FF40Phantomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01531096742663501044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-82453336518492431952015-05-22T13:41:48.986-07:002015-05-22T13:41:48.986-07:00Forgot to put in the link:
https://www.youtube.co...Forgot to put in the link:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49uB068i3ZUAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-23550552502619799682015-05-22T12:47:26.086-07:002015-05-22T12:47:26.086-07:00Ever seen CoCoTracker? A four voice Amiga MOD file...Ever seen CoCoTracker? A four voice Amiga MOD file player that plays samples at 10KHz each. It uses every available CPU cycle for music generation and sounds fantastic.<br /><br />If you're not talking voice then you're not talking sound samples but computer generated tones which eat up CPU cycles.<br /><br />It can be used in games for background music (such as Steve Bjork's Super Pitfall) but sampled sound is better for realistic sound effects and have less CPU overhead (data has been preprocessed) but they eat up more RAM.<br /><br />It still is no match for a dedicated sound chip like the C64's SID chip. Just look at any C64 game and compare the sound to any CoCo game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-13011165712714859572015-05-22T03:39:47.728-07:002015-05-22T03:39:47.728-07:00With all due respect, you do know who you are talk...With all due respect, you do know who you are talking with.<br />I designed the CoCo 3 so I have a pretty good idea what<br />It ‘s capable of. I have not coded in 6809 in many years<br />But I do write a lot of PIC code these days so I have no doubt<br />of what I’m saying. Gunshot, Explosion, on a PCM system are<br />You kidding? I do grant you that you would have to give up the<br />Joystick to do this. But you can do it. A 1K sample rate is just fine<br />For music and sound effects. Granted it’s insufficient for voice<br />But we are not talking about voice. <br /><br />Have any of your talented folks ever written a sampling synthesizer?<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028533456475058543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-40149527475269119452015-05-21T18:24:43.524-07:002015-05-21T18:24:43.524-07:00I'm talking samples here... where a gunshot so...I'm talking samples here... where a gunshot sounds like a gunshot and an explosion sounds like an explosion.<br /><br />Not beeps and squawks or sound that freezes animation on the screen.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-60671447799155219282015-05-21T18:08:19.847-07:002015-05-21T18:08:19.847-07:00I hope you back up these claims with actual coding...I hope you back up these claims with actual coding experience on the CoCo. Have you got examples to point us to? There are some really talented people here who know the hardware very well that will be scratching their heads after hearing that.<br /><br />What you need to take into account is that sound is not the only thing being produced within a realtime multi-tasking arcade game environment.<br /><br />And from my experiences, 1Khz is way too low for multi-channel realtime sound generation.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-78948433952221421642015-05-21T17:52:28.924-07:002015-05-21T17:52:28.924-07:00A 1K sample rate will yield a B above middle C Whi...A 1K sample rate will yield a B above middle C Which should produce acceptable music. If we are talking fidelity A DAC will render much better sound than the oscillator's in the Deluxe sound chip. In a 2MHz 6809 I think you afford the 10% overhead. Granted you do have to write good code to get there but that was the case with all that generations computers. And just for note fidelity is a function of sample size not sample rate.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028533456475058543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-73284093762134867062015-05-21T12:52:33.244-07:002015-05-21T12:52:33.244-07:00Oh, and I should point out, 1Khz is very low fidel...Oh, and I should point out, 1Khz is very low fidelity. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-2012122107895688952015-05-21T12:50:29.353-07:002015-05-21T12:50:29.353-07:00With Tandy, is was all about reducing cost to keep...With Tandy, is was all about reducing cost to keep profits up. Still, the added functionality of a sound chip would have raised the CoCo3's profile if all software could utilize the enhanced sound. <br /><br />Sometimes, you have to take 1 step backwards to go 2 steps forward and Tandy were not prepared to risk that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-65165356576425320052015-05-21T12:42:39.926-07:002015-05-21T12:42:39.926-07:00Might be a bit trickier than that. For starters, i...Might be a bit trickier than that. For starters, including such a routine into your application would leave little to no time for the application itself. <br /><br />The method employed in a game to provide sound simultaneously with game code execution is to use interrupts to trigger the sound playback. Generally, my routines put out a 2 channel sound at around 8Khz. It could be bumped up but that eats into CPU cycles needed for the game itself. A balance needs to be found.<br /><br />There really is no substitute for a dedicated sound chip to offload much of the sound generation. That's where computers like the C64 and Atari 800's have the edge with their dedicated sound circuits and hardware sprites. These two features alone save so much CPU load and leave more available for the game or application.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-63355654652797536672015-05-21T11:55:23.208-07:002015-05-21T11:55:23.208-07:00Cool! Why was this AY-3-8913 sound chip never adde...Cool! Why was this AY-3-8913 sound chip never added to the CoCo 3, if they wanted it in the Deluxe CoCo?!Fedor Steeman https://www.blogger.com/profile/08053729061377123780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-65067815698335755802015-05-21T06:48:40.484-07:002015-05-21T06:48:40.484-07:00Copied from my Facebook post (with formatting corr...Copied from my Facebook post (with formatting corrected)<br /><br />And here is the code that appears to define the ACIA (serial) port:<br /><br />CPUType set Color<br />COCOType set Original<br />ClocType set 0<br />PwrLnFrq set Hz60 Set frequency for U.S.<br />DPort set $FF40<br />ifeq COCOType-Delux<br />ACIAType set ACIA6551<br />A.T2 set $FF3C 6551 Acia Internal<br />A.T3 set $FF68 6551 AciaPak<br />else<br />A.T2 set $FF68 6551 ACIA external<br />endc<br /><br />The Deluxe CoCo's 6551 appears to be addressed at $FF3CPhantomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01531096742663501044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-3878613712337698452015-05-21T06:45:05.268-07:002015-05-21T06:45:05.268-07:003rd try is a charm?
Copied from my Facebook post
...3rd try is a charm?<br /><br />Copied from my Facebook post<br /><br />I opened up one of the OS-9 DSK files Boisy posted.<br />The source code defines the AY address as follows:<br />SoundAdr set $FF38<br />SWrtData set SoundAdr<br />SRdData set SoundAdr+1<br />SWrtReg set SoundAdr+1<br /><br />That looks odd because the read and write are normally done at the same address and the register select is normally the first address. But that depends entirely on the implementation.<br /><br />Here is what I would have expected:<br />SoundAdr set $FF38<br />SWrtData set SoundAdr+1<br />SRdData set SoundAdr+1<br />SWrtReg set SoundAdrPhantomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01531096742663501044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-67262245154077340562015-05-21T06:41:49.523-07:002015-05-21T06:41:49.523-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Phantomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01531096742663501044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-83164586450809013792015-05-21T02:57:25.547-07:002015-05-21T02:57:25.547-07:00No one really used the sound hardware in the CoCo3...No one really used the sound hardware in the CoCo3 correctly and that included Tandy. A 6 bit dac and a programmable interrupt generator could have done 3 voices of PCM very easily. That's basically just one load, 2 adds, 2 shifts, a store and an address check on the 3 frequency samples. Set the interrupts at 1kHz and that set aside an 8K block of memory to hold your samples and you have a very nice synthesizer. <br /><br />I take the full blame for not having that resource available in the CoCo 3. But I really didn't understand how to really do it until I got into designing the MPC. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028533456475058543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-10203169565672088302015-05-20T17:55:59.700-07:002015-05-20T17:55:59.700-07:00That makes sense. The low end market was the CoCo&...That makes sense. The low end market was the CoCo's main arena and I can understand the risks in investing in something that may have a smaller market share and cost more to produce.<br /><br />It also then makes sense that Tandy looked for another way to make an upgraded CoCo and still keep the costs down... hence the CoCo3. <br /><br />The CoCo3 is a great CoCo upgrade and well designed. I just wish the sound chip from the Deluxe was also included.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-14458645176315751852015-05-20T17:09:53.199-07:002015-05-20T17:09:53.199-07:00I doubt that any of the copies are in existence. I...I doubt that any of the copies are in existence. I wrote part of the new Basic and gave the routines to MS to integrate.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028533456475058543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-36253603173925731392015-05-20T17:01:53.688-07:002015-05-20T17:01:53.688-07:00It was a simple choice by Management. Use the chip...It was a simple choice by Management. Use the chip production for the Coco 2 that you know you can sell all of them or take a chance on a now model that is untested in the market place. Upper Management was not willing to take any risks. There were no other sources for this IC. Tandy bought the entire rub of chips for the year.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028533456475058543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-51301684220962373602015-05-20T15:56:50.490-07:002015-05-20T15:56:50.490-07:00This could be true but it was a decision that dela...This could be true but it was a decision that delayed the release of an upgraded CoCo for many years. <br /><br />I can only fathom that there was a plan for the CoCo3 in the near future using the then under development RMS chipset. When this failed to eventuate, the CoCo3 with GIME chip was commissioned. <br /><br />These delays would have been caused by Motorola but the Deluxe CoCo cancellation would have been more likely hinged on cost.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-88800748131086359172015-05-20T15:47:07.670-07:002015-05-20T15:47:07.670-07:00I'm only guessing here, but I expect that give...I'm only guessing here, but I expect that given the Christmas sales season, product had to be committed to production on a certain time table. If the VDG was in short supply as Mark indicated to me, Tandy was in the position to make a Solomonic choice: let one live and the other die, or split the baby and let both live. My intuition tells me that the CoCo 2 won because it was cheaper to manufacture than the Deluxe CoCo, and more profit could be made selling that machine.<br /><br />But ultimately Mark can shed more light on this. It's an educated guess and some conjecture on my part.jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031266315422011010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-57466626354749343742015-05-20T15:41:00.977-07:002015-05-20T15:41:00.977-07:00So, when the VDG became available, they decided to...So, when the VDG became available, they decided to make a cost reduced CoCo2 and ditch the better Deluxe CoCo?<br /><br />Tandy wasn't the only company using that VDG so it wasn't as if it was specially produced for them. Maybe they weren't keen to pay the full price.<br /><br />Something doesn't sound right.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355114277137294769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1726451980054066682.post-65368371603703267982015-05-20T15:35:21.321-07:002015-05-20T15:35:21.321-07:00Nick, the VDG was the chip in short supply at the ...Nick, the VDG was the chip in short supply at the time. Since both the Deluxe and the CoCo 2 needed the chip, the available chips went to the CoCo 2 and so the Deluxe was axed. This was told to me by Mark.jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031266315422011010noreply@blogger.com